But the rest of the bad stuff? The Reformed doctrine of salvation is commonly represented by the acrostic TULIP (also known as the five points of Calvinism ): T - total depravity. Change), You are commenting using your Facebook account. I will say that as a fairly new Lutheran, I have REALLY been blessed by the attitude that as a woman, I am relating directly to Christ and am responsible for my own theology. But I doand I understand where Jeff S is coming from here. Which of us sat down in total ignorance, started at Genesis, and came up with a belief system? We are not monolithic. However, I have repeatedly heard calvinists call other believers heretics and blasphemers because they disagree with a pillar of calvinism (eg, they have a different definition of Gods sovereignity, or they believe Christ died for the sins of all). That article Early Jesus Freak Movement Hollywood Free Paper country As Sixties(TM) as Rowan & Martins Laugh-In and then some. Yet, no matter how hard I tried to understand, I just couldn't get there. I know it bothers you when you feel a belief is misrepresented. Some Calvinists will argue that being Non-Cal always means automatically being a universalist, denying the Scriptures, believing in a works-based salvation, or not believing in Gods sovereignty, etc. And that I need to keep praying that God will teach me to love them the way he wants me to. held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. who needs systems & neat little boxes? Reformed theology teaches that God in His grace and mercy has chosen to redeem a people to Himself, delivering them from sin and death. To give a sense of scale for word count well over 600,000: Rule of thumb for both manuscript format and mass-market paperback is 250 words/page. Im not saying that they are incapable of making the mistake, but, since you say that this is what many people come away with, it could be that they communicated it poorly. There is a reason there has been a debate for centuries. Im glad I know that now. Would you drink a glass of water with just a little flesh eating bacteria in it? Thanks for the clarification. Now I believe it and I think its what scripture teaches, but how in the world can it be necessary and central to the Gospel if the church didnt even think about it in earnest for 1500 years? I am a Christian. He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot. Gordon Fee 30. There are days I really have to remind myself that God still very much loves people who have little love or respect for me or other Arminian Christians. It caused her great pain to contemplate the Calvinist belief that God had ordained for her to be abused in such a manner. . I found an interweb site a while back that had a downloadable version of Calvins Pentateuch (as I call it, by analogy rather than because it contains five of anything in particular). A person who has been abused should get A LOT of leeway in airing their feelings, because for a time (maybe a LONG time), the value of their free expression is more important than trying to protect a viewpoint. Olsen is one of the writers who sees two "loose coalitions" developing in evangelical theology. Had childhood friends who were Nazarene and Presbyterian and myself., Plymouth Brethren. Groovy, man. Feels your pain with you. Man is unable to save himself and, therefore, God must initiate salvation. Did you see my comment in the post about a nice Calvinist? We can all agree that automaton doctrine is evil. There are some big ones where I do not agree (for example, he is quite patriarchal, even though he doesnt make as big a deal about it as some of the more outspoken complementarians). I understand the desire for them, I respect the way that they are conceived, and there are parts of them that I think very useful, but as a whole, they are too small for the God I now know. I was drawn to the faith forseveral years due to my reading as well as viewing Billy Graham on the television. The assuredness of the approach is arrogant. At first, I thought I had missed something in my Christian walk. She discussed the abuse that she has been subjected to in her life. Enter fatalistic determinism. He followed what was Augustinianism, which was the soteriological understanding of the church historically - all the way back to the apostles themselves. Do not expect to win the argument, no matter how logical and "winsome" you are. This is what has been preached to many people over and over. And, lets face it, which side was harsher on your blog? Never mind those 2400+ pages of Perfectly-Parsed Theology also stem from the same base assumptions about God as Mohammed that Gods Omnipotent Will overrides everything else about God, never mind physical reality. It was your comment about illogic that got me to thinking. We are. I dont know why I didnt think of this earlier. The correct understanding of any belief system shouldnt be of importance when Jesus says to come to him as a child., I think Jesus meant childlike, not childish. Childlike faith and trust are good, but faith has content, and, as it says in Hebrews, we should not be satisfied all our lives with the milk of the word, but should graduate to solid food.. Alexander Maclaren 15. This is a big issue for me, because theres a difference in believing in PSA and believing it is central to the Gospel or that believing a different atonement theology is a different Gospel. I always try to be sensitive, and Ive communicated before that I agree that theology should take a backseat. They are charitable and give us the benefit of the doubt. You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer. I sympathise with Jeff about all the tar spattered in his direction. Thanks for the recommendation. whats so complicated about that? 9Marks is another group which promotes the fact that they, the local church, get to decide who is saved and not saved. Or if I make it to the Board of Ordained Ministry in February, Ill share my recording. Again, living in a 3 dimensional world, that makes little sense. Here's the list, and I start with the first prez of the CR, Adrian Rogers: Adrian Rogers. The assuredness of the approach is arrogant. He once called Wesley an inconsistent Calvinist. So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say.. I cant get there either on the basis of the argument (I have heard it all and tried)., I get where you are coming from within your paradigm. These same people are taken to task for twisting the Calvin/Tulip/Reformed beliefs on blogs. So, for example, we just did this study of the WCF with a a group at my church. They always enter the discussion with the premises well defined; and the cornerstone premise is that you are wrong and they are right. I can't get thereeither on the basis of the argument (I have heard it all and tried). My Comment was Deleted (My experience, from childhood on.). When we dont like what someone teaches we try to make them a non Christian so we dont have to love them. This was the feeling my wife and I got upon entering the world of neocalvinism in 2008. CALVIN! The correct understanding of any belief system shouldnt be of importance when Jesus says to come to him as a child. @ Bridget: Its very difficult and exhausting having a conversation with people who claim you never, ever get their views correct. I dont know. And it wouldnt matter to me if what the person said was true or not. He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot, @ Headless Unicorn Guy:YOu should see my Christmas tree. Jesus wept. When people have been hurt by something they have come to realize was wrong, they will present their disagreements with fervor. Yes, Nouthetic Counseling and a lot of teachers have given this impression, but they are wrong. Theology needs to take the back seat when it comes to comforting the abused. God has chosen THEM as the sole recipients of His TRUTH. Quote - "A pure heart won't get us out of conflict and controversy. Im very glad that I can call you a sister in our Lord and a friend.. Attendance at Calvin-influenced worship conferences and churches is up,. A stupendously important point, Jeff. http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/reformed-theology/arminianism/calvinism-vs-arminianism-comparison-chart/, http://www.pbs.org/thisemotionallife/topic/happiness/helping-others, http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/2013/09/dont-mess-with-texas-baptists_2.html, http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/ravagedfaith.html, In reply to forgiven-to-be-forgiving . Just happy to be able to trust that God really is good again. Every kindness & every meanness I do sends ripples outward and I birth the future by my words and deeds. *If we disagree, let us disagree on what we see in Scripture, not on our own sense of right and wrong. Every kindness & every meanness I do sends ripples outward and I birth the future by my words and deeds. Im not trying to imply that you have never done the later. Ive not tried to convince anyone to be a Calvinist. I also was not the only one who reacted to this. Maybe I need to learn how to live with it better. I was taught for years that my salvation was only a happy side effect of Gods bringing glory to Himself- and after years of trying to rationalize how horrible things that happen are scripted for us by God- and after years of listening to systematic theology that seeks to cram all the unexplainable nature and mystery of God into a neat, cut and dried smugness with a pat answer to everything- I am like a kid in a candy store. Online, of course, its much harder to gauge actually, impossible, since you have no idea who is reading what youre writing. All the water in the glass was tainted with a bit of black dye, but it was not pure black and saturated with the dye. It buys you nothing in light of Gods absolute control. Once again, I was struck by Olson's response. I DO know of Calvinists who stay away from these blogs excuse they feel they are unwelcome, even though they very much wish to fight against abuse. I have a very low tolerance for that kind of thing. Reformed theology celebrates the glory of God. Some Calvinists who want to make a distinction between hyper calvinism and proper Calvinism will gravitate to these equivocations in an effort to convince youand I suspect themselvesthat God in their construct is not some despotic puppet master who controls all things including abuse, rape, etc (e.g. Oy. However, they are limited, just as we are. Far better, in my opinion, to grieve openly and honestly, and know that the God of all compassion weeps with us. I am having trouble keeping up with all the comments between the two. Jeff, whether it was my misperceptions or real perceptions of the doctrine that you hold dear to your heart, someone trying to correct my faulty ideas of Calvinism isnt going to benefit me whatsoever if I am at the emotional/spiritual end of my rope. Their scholarship seems smug and oddly ineffectual (quoted by one mother) and yes, it later became apparent that The Way was actually doctrinally aberrant and yet through this article you were drawn to Jesus, so maybe this suggests God sometimes uses unlikely means to create new believers? Probably originated with Calvinists during the Reformation Wars or their descendants the Puritans; as an answer to the question Am I One of The Elect? Using Im Rich! Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, (You must log in or sign up to post here. In SGM, most of us were pretty demure. It is, imo, impossible to pin any of this down in some sort of neat and easy formula, but the Lord knows, we (humans) keep trying! I find that to be an amazing God thing. The promises are over the top. Matthew Pinson Michael Brown Michael Heiser Mildred Bangs Wynkoop Miner Raymond N Nathan Bangs Norman Geisler [footnote]Geisler refers to himself as a Calvinist but his works reflect a more non-Calvinist view of soteriology [/footnote] O P Paige Patterson Philip H. Towner Q R Randolph S. Foster Ravi Zacharias Richard Lenski Richard Watson And really, in the end, if a doctrine about the majesty and greatness of God doesnt comfort traumatized people (among all the needy humans out there), then of what real use is it? Just a few thoughts for you. Best Overall non calvinist systematic theology: This non calvinist systematic theology is the king of the hill. He was the leading French Protestant reformer and the most important figure in the second generation of the Protestant Reformation. Sproul Ive learned much from him, though I dont always agree. Have prayed for him, his family and physicians. God can do that. Eventually I became a Christian during an episode of Star Trek while reading a LifeMagazine article about "The Groovy Christians of Rye, New York." Sovereign Grace Ministries And heres 2400+ pages of PROOF! And would appeal to organization freaks with OCD who crave To Be Absolutely Right? It depends, some advocates of Reformed theology say, on whether Christians on both sides are willing to tiptoe through the TULIP-the acrostic for five doctrinal points that set apart Calvinists. People, including you, got upset from Calvinists just stating their views. I know of Hortons book and I shall read that after I finish Olson. They alone have truth in ALL things, by Gods special revelation. At the end of the class, he was VERY sure where he stood- a non-Calvinist. I also want to learn to be a bit more like Olson, showing kindness in the midst of disagreement. All the Catholic and Orthodox traditions, major liturgical Protestant groups like Lutheran and Anglican, and the Arminian/Methodist/Holiness line, which would include many Charismatics, Non-denominational, etc. Could the person have simply avoided it and gone to someplace else without even making the comment? Im not saying that her description is completely off, but its far from the God of Scripture. Did you notice that I used the word "non-Calvinist" as opposed to Arminian? Your voice is missing! It is nice to meet someone who remembers.If you dont mind me prying, where did you grow up? He started out not sure where he stood. Prior to learning of the YRR thing, I actually tried to force my self to accept the thinking as presented by these men. And I agree with this. Those wishes are not uncommon. We need well-rounded meals, small and frequent, in a quiet warm kitchen with loads of kindness. So in other contexts your Calvinism/steak analogy is right as far as I know. My bet would be that some (many?) A secondary cause is always subservient to the primary cause, which is God. It is nice to meet someone who remembers.If you dont mind me prying, where did you grow up? Now I have a place to send the Calvin debates and can keep the other threads relatively Calvin debate-free. And those of us who see the logical cause and effect of Calvinism-to-abuse are against Calvinism because we dont WANT the powers that be to be the power any more. Im a musician in a band the skill level I have now is directly proportional to how many times Ive absolutely made a total fool of myself in front of people. Breastmilk tested at 1 year postpartum is different than breastmilk at 6 months postpartum, etc. Weve all been taught by people with various frameworks- that isnt bad. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. Here is the question. You seem to know the internal workings of God which amazes me. So, does God elect people who are only a little totally depraved as opposed to those who are totally totally depraved? And I would especially like to thank Jeff S for demonstrating how to explain and defend in great charity Calvinism and why he holds to those beliefs. But, if, during an online conversation about Calvinism, someone writes that the discussion is disturbing to him/her, certain questions arise beyond the obvious point that its wrong to attack that person: Should the conversation be halted? ), The best treatment of this question Ive read is by John Piper, so Im not sure youd want to read it. of one. Be prepared though, reading The Institutes is a difficult undertaking. I think so, but Im not quite sure what youre asking. But when I look at others, I take a view that is closer to Arminian: that they have a responsibility to respond to the Gospel that is before them. Horton made it clear that he did not agree with all of Olson's assertions. This is what Calvinists need to come to terms with. Its like taking someone whos been caged and respecting that they might not feel comfortable in small rooms, or inside buildings at all. IMO he has helped destroy the Southern Baptist Convention, but no one dare tell him this.